E111 - The Power of NO with Sarah Gonnella

Ever felt the weight of a simple 'no'? We've all been there, wrestling with the anxiety of turning down a request, and the ripple effects it might have. That's why we invited Sarah Ginella, the insightful VP of Full Sail Partners, to unravel the emotional layers that often make it so hard to refuse. Together, we tackle the concept of 'counterfeit yeses' and how to realign our decisions with our true feelings, championing the power of an authentic 'no.' It's a journey through the highs and lows of personal and professional boundaries that promises to leave you with a newfound respect for that tiny syllable.

At the heart of this episode lies the nuanced dance of communication, where a 'no' can be as complex as a kaleidoscope of colors. Sarah and I delve into how context can alter its meaning from a respectful denial to a harmful dismissal, and how recognizing this can empower those feeling undervalued to find their voice. We're not just talking about saying 'no'; we're fostering a workplace culture that applauds it. By doing so, we lay the foundation for authentic dialogue and create a professional environment that respects individual boundaries as much as it does productivity.

Rounding off our insightful chat, we share practical tips and anecdotes on managing workloads and setting professional boundaries. Hear how the go/no-go decision-making framework might just be the tool you need to communicate limits assertively and navigate the delicate balance of work commitments. Understand that it's not just the scale of a project that determines the workload, but the people and emotions behind it, and learn the art of gracefully declining, opening the door to a more balanced life. So tune in, and let's empower you to stand firm in your 'why' and wield the word 'no' with confidence and clarity.
You can find the BOYBAS livestreams here: (1) Bring Out Your BadAss Self (#BOYBAS): Overview | LinkedIn
Here is a link to NoBS with Jenn and Jess : (1) No BS with Jen & Jess: Overview | LinkedIn

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Transcript

Sarah Gonnella : 0:00

I'm going to talk right down to us and I'll hang with everybody here and can easily understand.

The UnCommon Communicator : 0:06

Welcome to the Uncom communicator podcast, where we bring enlightenment to the topic of communication. Are you ready to take ownership of your conversations? Are you looking to possess the skills to navigate and facilitate conversations to a mutual understanding? What are you waiting for? Have your growth mindset and let's go. Welcome everybody to this week's show. This week, I am so excited to have Sarah Ginella with me. Sarah, why don't you introduce yourself to us? Introduce us to our listener.

Sarah Gonnella : 0:43

Perfect. Good evening, james. It's great to be here. Thank you for having me. My name is Sarah Ginella and I am a partner and VP of Full Sail Partners and I oversee marketing and sales for the company, but I'm also the co-host of a live stream and we focus on breaking negative thoughts and habits and focusing on helping to build each other up and encouraging fearless authenticity. So a part of today that's going to be part of our topic is helping people to be fearless in the power of no Right.

The UnCommon Communicator : 1:24

Yes, we are going to be talking about the power of no. What first really connected us, really had to do with the power of now. Like, we talked a little bit about that. We met on LinkedIn. We're going to drop the W. That's what we're going to do today and talk about no, and it's been an interesting ride for us. Like this is our second go around. I'm all willing to accept it. I had some internet issues and we're like, let's go back at this and then, going back at it, probably the best thing for me. It allowed me a little bit of time to think about what and how we address the word no. Now let's talk about no. We had originally a discussion about the importance of it and we had kind of different takes on it and we're going to talk a little bit about that. But when we talk about the word no, like what kind of feelings come from you when we talk about the word no?

Sarah Gonnella : 2:15

Yeah, so the word no is really two simple letters and it's also one simple word and it is a complete sentence as well, and a lot of people don't understand that people can simply say no and move on. But what I have found is that a lot of people sometimes have very difficult times saying the word no, and it can be a very powerful word. But I've also found that as people start to use the word no, they start to learn also how to say yes without saying no as well.

The UnCommon Communicator : 2:54

And we talked a little bit about that, because the yes falling into yes isn't a great thing either, and I think that's what drives us to this discussion about the power of no, and that's something. Let's pause on that for a minute, because being a people pleaser, being somebody who always wants to give people what they want, a lot of times we I'm throwing myself in there, like I want to make sure that people are happy with the product that I'm bringing, with everything, so I have a hard time saying no, but also yes has created a lot of havoc in my life. So learning to say no is something that is not natural for. Do you think? Half of us, a lot of us.

Sarah Gonnella : 3:35

I think a lot of us, and I think the word pause that you used was the key word. It is taking a pause to understand. In the moment when you have an emotion and you're not sure which way you should go yes or no it's having that pause and understanding, okay. Well, what's going on here. Why am I feeling this particular way? Because a lot of times, what's packed with having difficulty saying no is that maybe you have guilt. Like you said, you're a people pleaser and so there's maybe fear of disappointing someone or maybe someone not liking you. And I think that when we think about in the past, when we grew up, it's we were taught early on that we should listen to adults, we should always do the things that they say, that we're told to behave a particular way and we're told that authority figures we should always do what it is they are telling us. So we've actually been taught not to say the word no, but we have been taught in a lot of ways to say the word yes.

The UnCommon Communicator : 4:53

Well, and that's something. So you're right, this is almost a culture thing, but also just being raised in. A lot of societies are like that. You're raised to do your thing. Some are stricter than others, but, yeah, you have to say yes all the time. No is never an acceptable thing. And how to do no effectively? Because when I look at the idea of yes and no, a lot of times there's a thing called counterfeit yeses. That's something in negotiation where somebody will say yes just to get you to move on, get you out of their office, get the guy off the phone. Yes, it's fine, I'll be there. And that on the other side we have to look at because of that mindset we're looking at, is there counterfeit no's in there as well? And I think the key where you're going to is we have to say them effectively, like Sam, with real meaning behind them.

Sarah Gonnella : 5:46

Yeah, absolutely. And so when we start to look at no, it's really evaluating your gut. And so what you said is that we're saying yes, but it's just to get it off the plate or to just agree, even though that's not where our heart is. So when we start to practice saying no or even yes, you can really do that easily by having a gut check. And so it's just asking yourself how do I feel in this particular moment?

Sarah Gonnella : 6:19

And what I have found is, when you feel uncomfortable saying yes, that is a moment to pause and say, okay, well, why am I feeling this way? Or do I feel obligated to do something? Because I feel maybe guilty if I don't do that? And you start to look at people within your life and the people that you feel like you need to say yes to. So when we think about those things your boss, your spouse you know the responsibilities or the things that you have going on in your life, that you want to please your kids, you want to please all of these people, but sometimes you get overloaded and you need the ability to be able to set some healthy boundaries. Okay, this is what's important to me. Here are my values. This is why I should do this, and that's really where the pause comes into play is understanding and doing a gut check to understand. Am I just trying to do this to please someone? Or, you know, is this request, for example, crossing my personal boundaries? So it's asking that question.

The UnCommon Communicator : 7:28

Well, so you said boundaries and I think that is probably one of the keys right to really understanding the no and the yes. And I think, if we can, this is almost going to be a paradigm shift of the fact that if we're raised a certain way, so are others raised the other way. So there's people out there that don't think no means no and where does no mean no? Because there's a negotiation subsec that's out there saying no begins the negotiation. I mean, this is what Chris Voss says in negotiation specifically, but he's not saying no means no. Now you have a very clear story on why no means no and how does no mean no apply and when.

Sarah Gonnella : 8:10

Yeah, I mean and I can understand in a negotiation hostage situation you're needing to get that person to a yes. But I can tell you from personal experience understanding that no means no is super important. And so, growing up, one of the things that a lot of times people had a part of their life is oh, you should give grandma or you should give uncle a hug, or you should. Even if you feel uncomfortable, you're still almost obligated to give that person a hug, and one of the things that I've really found is that we shouldn't do that because we are actually impacting people's consent and ability to be able to say no and that can actually be very harmful. And I'm case in point.

Sarah Gonnella : 9:03

Growing up, I ended up having to learn how to say no, because whenever I was young, I was actually molested by my cousin for a year and then later on in life I ended up finally going and getting some real help and I ended up going into inpatient mental institute because I was having feelings of suicide.

Sarah Gonnella : 9:29

And what I found in that is they gave me a book called how to Say no when you Really Want to Say yes, and for me, I wasn't involved in drugs, I wasn't involved in mischief or things like that. I was actually saying yes to almost everything, so I was overloading myself in doing, doing, doing in order to forget and not deal with what it is that I was dealing with. So I had to actually have a mental mind shift and I really didn't learn this until much later, in the power of no, and why no can be so important to make sure that you are safe. And so, if we go back to your question about boundaries, the difference is boundaries keep us safe, much like physical boundaries. So you think about a fence and it's meant to keep people in and it's a particular boundary. Well, the same thing can apply to our, our mental health, you know. So those expectations give no property line to another person, but the boundary is what you set in, what it is you're going to do to instill that boundary.

The UnCommon Communicator : 10:40

Well, and thanks so much for sharing that story, because that really drives home. It helps me understand a little better why no is so important. Really understanding boundaries, too is who owns those? I mean, I understand, if somebody can set boundaries, then we need to respect them, but how do we set boundaries?

Sarah Gonnella : 11:03

Yeah. So I think part of it is understanding your values first and foremost, and so we have to understand our physical boundaries. And I'll give you an example of that. So my daughter growing up in fifth grade, she decided that she did not like hugs. Well, as a mom, that's super hard Like I want to hug my daughter and so but I also knew the importance of that boundary. She said I'm really not a hugger. So I said, okay, here's what I'm going to do. This is going to be super hard for mom, but I also respect the boundary that you're setting and what it is that you're asking. So, instead of just giving you a hug, I will ask you. I will say can I get a hug? And you can say yes or you can say no, and I will do whichever it is that you stated and what that does is that really instills within someone that they have the ability to have consent over their physical body. Now keep in mind, probably like six months later, all of a sudden she was a hugger again and now she hugs me all the time.

Sarah Gonnella : 12:11

But the fact that I ended up respecting her and respecting that boundary provided that trust, and that is what really boundaries are about. It's establishing healthy relationships with people, and keep in mind that it can be spiritual, it can be mental, it can be any. There are multiple types of boundaries, so when we think about things in what is important to us, it's understanding what is important to us from a value perspective, and then it's letting someone know what that expectation is. Now, if that person crosses over that boundary, then we have to learn how it is that we then have the conversation and let them know. Look, this was something that I had stated to you, but this is what I'm going to do. I'm not expecting you to now do anything. I'm letting you know the next time this happens. This is what I will do.

The UnCommon Communicator : 13:08

And tying this to communication, which everything, everything ties to communication. What an easy podcast, right? I picked the most common topic you could ever. Everything ties to it. But boundaries are big in all of our conversations and what you're talking about is a communication technique. It divides, its protection, you know. It's a shield, it's whatever you want to call it. It's the ability to have the control for yourself, to be in your now, right now, to say I am in control of this by placing those boundaries. So I think that's, I think this is just really brilliant in bringing out in regards to, to conversation, communication and all of that. But this one here, like you know, we had this start and the stop and it really created an opportunity for me to reflect on our conversation that we had, and it was. It took me a while, like I processed, for I have a very long commute into work today, on Mondays, and it took me some time to really think about, like, why? What is the connection between the nose?

The UnCommon Communicator : 14:05

Like there is because I was seeing no on the negotiation side. You're seeing no from the side that you just shared, which is completely personal and absolutely a power, you know, position of strength. And then it kind of came to me and so the whole idea is there's there's two notes, at least two, we're going to stick to today. But the no of refusal, that's where because I, looking at negotiation, like no starts a negotiation. That means no doesn't mean no. I'm like wait a minute. But if there's a no of refusal, if somebody says no, that is no means no, that's it. That should be a one done, you're out, forget about it. But the one thing on the no side I think that really has brought me into really talking about communication and really wanting to bring value to people who feel underserved, underspoken, who don't speak up for themselves and that's why I bring up this whole topic of communication is the no of dismissal. And that's the one, I think, where you look at somebody who is just dismissed. Why? Because they're a woman, because they're a man, because they're short, because they're tall, that doesn't matter. People are dismissed. And when they're dismissed, those are the communication responsibilities, not responsibilities, the communication skills that we want to give to people to be able to speak up for themselves, and I think that's the other side of that.

The UnCommon Communicator : 15:33

No, when you're told no in a way of dismissal, which, to me, when we're in a group, if you and I are chatting and I've shared this on the podcast before and somebody comes up, I immediately bring them, and sometimes there are people who don't have any it's a nice way to put it. They had no social practice to know that somebody just walked up and you ignore them. I've been that person and to not acknowledge them, so that to me is a dismissal in a way. How do we bridge that gap? And so that's the other side of the known for me, like, all right, that's something that Sarah and James can work on, Like we can work on a way to really bring about. You know, no means no. To me that's easy, especially in you know, if I go on a bar or whatever, all those situations you know, typically they're talking about leading to something you know sexual, that somebody doesn't want to do, or drinking, or whatever it might be. No means no, but talk about dismissal. Have you been in places where you've felt dismissed by a no?

Sarah Gonnella : 16:35

You know, whenever I think about that, I think it all depends on the situation and, as we have discovered it, it very much depends on the situation, like in the negotiation hostage situation. You're not wanting to really accept that. No, because people's lives are at stake. When it is a boss that is dismissing or a coworker that's dismissing another person's idea, that can be very detrimental as well. What we don't know is what's in the other side, why it is they're saying no, because, keep in mind, most of the time it has to do with potentially fear, fear of what you know, fear of extra work, you know, fear of change, fear of, and so a lot of times it's maybe approaching the situation or the topic again to better understand where the potential barriers might be.

Sarah Gonnella : 17:33

And sometimes what I have found is when someone simply gives me a no and they give it to me quickly like there's something there. So I feel like I need to sort of respect them. But if they're saying, for example, no, you know, we've always done it this way, okay, well, you know, those are the seven most expensive words right there in business is no, we've always done it this way, and so? So you then have to figure out okay, well, how can I now figure out a way to be able to help this, understand the person, understand the benefits. But when you say no, the benefits of sometimes saying no, is because one I might be burnt out or it doesn't align with my goals, or you know, I need self care, I just have too much going on right now.

Sarah Gonnella : 18:24

Or maybe, like in business for example, I say no sometimes to clients and I say you know what? We're not a good fit. So I think you know it's all context and it's all depends. But for me, when someone adamantly says no, I have to sort of respect them because there's something there that they are feeling uncomfortable and if they're that adamant in quickly saying no, then it. Then they're sort of, you know, shutting it down and I need to sort of respect it. If they're saying no, I don't really want to do that. That to me is sort of an invitation that they're still wavering. It's not a definite no. Does that make sense?

The UnCommon Communicator : 19:06

Yeah, completely. And when you talked about people saying no, quickly happen enough, I don't think. And so you have a practice at your business, where you have people practice. No, tell me more, tell everybody about that. Tell me about my first week I come in. This is my first week on the job. How are you going to onboard me?

Sarah Gonnella : 19:29

I got you. Well, this was actually with some specific individuals that they had identified that they were people pleasers and specifically me being their supervisor. The last thing I want are, yes, people. And so, for me, one of the best ways that I was able to identify how to help them is I needed them to feel comfortable saying no. And so one particular person I ended up going to them and I said, okay, I have an exercise that I want us to try. And I said, for the next week, I want you, every time I come to you, to say no. And this person was like what are you doing to me? Because they're like already uncomfortable with me, even requesting that. And I said they go, am I supposed to say no now? And I'm like I started laughing and I said okay, here's the thing I said.

Sarah Gonnella : 20:31

One of the things that you said that you I want to work on is that you're a people pleaser and that you tend to add a lot of things to your plate or say yes very quickly because you want to please people. You, you, but you. Sometimes that can impact us, as you have seen with with being over, I burnt out, and that's not one of the things that we want, we want in our company. So whenever I told her that I ended up doing some different things where I would go to her and I gave her an unreasonable item that she was An expectation that I had of her, it was over the weekend. There was a client, we had another employee out and I said, hey, I found out the information I need for you to send this person an email. She's like okay, I'm driving right now. Mind you, this is on the weekend. She's like can I, can I do this? You know, whenever I get a get back and I said no and she was like gosh. She's like what do you want me to do? And she was like stressing and I'm like look, you know, we had this conversation. No, sarah, I, you know. You don't even have to say no, I can get to that on Monday when I get back to work. That's all you have to say. So you don't even have to say no, yes, I got that, I'll get it on Monday. And then if I have a problem and I needed it that that weekend, for whatever reason, it was an emergency we can do that.

Sarah Gonnella : 22:01

But I've had other employees, for example and this is with clients that they feel obligated they must take care of situations immediately, and I said so. Did the clients say that they needed it done immediately? They were like I don't know they, but they reached out to me and I said okay, so when a client comes to you, ask them, say, hey, right now it looks like my schedule is about two weeks out. I want to find out, is this something you need done immediately, that I need to try to find someone to be able to help you, or is it okay if we, you know, schedule this in two weeks and they're like, oh no, you know, two weeks is fine, and so it's just having that conversation, when, in actuality, they have almost an assumption or they feel obligated that they need to immediately respond or do things With.

Sarah Gonnella : 22:53

With people and I've seen this all the time, and you may have seen this at your boss send you out something at 9pm and you're like crap, I need to respond back to that. Well, no, you don't. You can simply say the next morning hey, I saw you sent me an email at 9pm last night. Just wanted to let you know that after 6 o'clock and night, you know I'm done for the evening and I will be sure to pick those up in the morning. You now have simply set the expectation and the boundary.

The UnCommon Communicator : 23:23

You were. You're setting boundaries, but I'm listening to you. I'm like now I would respond. I need to work on that. That's certainly something. I'm like six, I'm still working. What are you talking about?

The UnCommon Communicator : 23:32

But it's something that you, that you touched on, that I think is really important to talk about, is the idea of you know that feeling to be able to say no for one, but also To have that conversation with about deadlines. There's my friend, philippe, engineer man Rikas says all deadlines are a lie, like they're there. I've seen, I've seen teams in multiple companies where they'll get a deadline and you work just all weekend to get it and the client's like I mean, they didn't, they, we wanted to react, we wanted to react and please them, get to it, but it really wasn't that important. And I've heard these words like it could have waited, like they didn't know that you went into emergency mode. And that's what I love is have that clarifying question of you know, is this a true deadline? At least, have that, you know, up front conversation, unless you got time for it. But I'm going to tell you people who are people pleasers, they're going to find the time and it's going to be the time that they take away from their families. It's going to be time that they take away from themselves. So that's, you know, not necessarily even a good one, is to look at just the time, but to look at, you know, that boundary and that respect, because that's exactly it. You hear the opportunity to be able to say does you know, can it wait till Monday? And a lot of times it's like oh yeah, and I've seen that, like recently on a couple of things. It's like oh yeah, I didn't need it right away, but the words, your tone, you know, your position, all said to me that this needed to happen right now. And when you talked about a boss, we like I'll clean up the words, this is a G rated podcast, but I guess it's called Seagull managing now where the bird comes around and we use the different words on how they just poop on your head and then go home. Well, I, we had boss.

The UnCommon Communicator : 25:16

I had a boss like that and it was always like two o'clock on a Friday. You know he go down and he's a really fast typer and he'd shoot out all these things and need this report and he this and he that and he that. And then like it's like, oh, what a week I feel great, I'm done early, and then he'd split, because then he just dumped all that. I mean he was done and then he dumped that stuff and that. Those were things where it's like, man, I'm gonna be here till four or five o'clock at night because I don't want to take it home, and so those are the things where, you know, looking back at it, you know you really need this by Monday morning at 7am.

The UnCommon Communicator : 25:49

You know, no, I'm not gonna look at it till the end of the day. Okay, then I can put it aside. And then that goes back to that boundaries. I own them. Like I have to decide, you know, like when I decide I'm gonna stay late, just so I don't have to work on it on the weekend. That's my choice. Maybe not a great choice, not let it go until Monday and work on it on Monday sometimes, no, but that's, I think, the key in finding, you know, finding those boundaries.

Sarah Gonnella : 26:16

Yeah, and I also think that a lot of times, with someone that's your supervisor or someone that has that authority or that basically almost control, in some ways, of the money that you're going to make and your career and all of those types of things, we we feel that we have to please this person. We have to make sure that we're we're doing what we need to do, and one of the things that we have really focused on I say it all the time at the very beginning I said this no is a complete sentence. So if you are feeling overloaded or overworked, whatever it is, we simply request that you communicate, and we do this across the board as well. So I had an employee that even asked me well, what am I working hours? And I said, well, what hours do you need to work to get your job done? And I said to make sure that you're communicating, you know, with, with your clients, with your coworkers, things like that. She's like oh, so just be an adult, like yes, that's what we expect is for people to be an adult and for us to also be able to say no, because we don't know what's going on in their life.

Sarah Gonnella : 27:27

And that's the biggest part is the human element of what all might be going with going on with them. So a lot of times, people will hear me and I'll say I'm going to get a massage, like I have figured out that my body and my mind sometimes needs to shut down in order to revive myself, and so on. You know, almost every six weeks on a Saturday, I tend to do it, and sometimes I'm not able to. I go get a massage because I know that that's something that I need. But when you also think about the career aspect, when a boss is asking you to do something, is that an alignment with your goals?

Sarah Gonnella : 28:10

You know, is that something? Now? Keep in mind, for me, it's always stepping up. We were always trying to help each other. That's ultimately what it's about. But if I'm asking or someone else is asking them to do something that really isn't an alignment with what their goals are, shouldn't we be raising our hand and saying, hey, you know, just want to check in on this. You know to for us to get an alignment on things, and that's a lot of times what what the know and the boundaries are about is making sure that you were in alignment from a communication perspective.

The UnCommon Communicator : 28:44

That's the whole thing. Right is being able to effectively communicate. A know that is a no, a yes that is a yes, and then you know we talked early about that pause, but I think that's where we end up. We hear so many counterfeit knows and counterfeit yeses, like how many times has somebody said you know, yes, to get you out of the office? I'll be at the office mixer on Thursday, no problem. And then, because it's Monday and they know between now and Thursday that they're going to come up with a reason that they don't have to know be some kind of work related thing, right.

Sarah Gonnella : 29:15

Would you?

The UnCommon Communicator : 29:16

rather her to know. But it is, and I haven't been in a work situation for a long time that I wasn't there to manage myself, just kind of like I've been at work. They've let me be an adult for a long time. You know what I'd have to ask what are my work hours? Because what have I do? I probably work longer hours, ultimately, anyways, because I'm driven to get my my job done.

The UnCommon Communicator : 29:35

So there is that driven part of it expectation that you have, and we all know the people that aren't producing, because you just want people to go in and do their job and then go home, no matter what time is. So but I know this, like it's been years. Like I said, I haven't had a boss, but I know it's out there. So you know that's the whole key is giving people opportunity or tips on how to create those boundaries and how to have a good no and a good yes and be willing to stand to that, because there is and we can't get ourselves. And I think you you sounds like you're in a great organization. I work for a great organization that lets me manage. You know my time as well too.

The UnCommon Communicator : 30:15

But there's people out there who are no could mean they lose their job, and you know it's easy for me to sit in. You know my direct deposit to paycheck, to say you know, you know you shouldn't have to be there, but those are real. You know I worked paycheck to paycheck for a lot of years, worked hourly, my wife stayed home watch the kids, and so he missing those days. You, you put up with a lot of stuff that you shouldn't have. Looking back at it. You know, and that's one thing is, how do you encourage people to be able to set those boundaries, to set themselves first, because at some point, you know, it's kind of like this podcast, like it was a. It wasn't going well when we tried it, my internet wasn't working.

The UnCommon Communicator : 30:54

You know, this year we're having just a deeper, better conversation. Maybe it's the same thing with your. You know the company you're in. You think I can't afford to leave. Well, maybe you can afford not to. If you're going to go, people are going to respect you because you're not out there looking and I was there. I mean you. Just you kept working in that job because I needed that paycheck to come in. But how do you do that? How do you? How do you encourage people to be able to create those boundaries that could, it could affect their paycheck?

Sarah Gonnella : 31:20

Yeah. So I'll give you an example of a conversation that I had with someone. One of the things that so marketers were a lot of times very it's a very thinkless job in a lot of ways. So, especially in the AEC industry, you're doing proposals. I remember doing proposals at two o'clock in the morning, getting things done, and I had this person that said I need more staff members and I can't get my leadership to understand that I need more people and I'm afraid I'm going to lose people. I'm not going to have enough people Then then it's become, going to become even worse.

Sarah Gonnella : 32:03

So my suggestion to them was think about things from their perspective. So when we think about the different types of people and I think that's what ends up being important and so I I said you know, from an executive, they're talking about growth. You know, so it's it's either you're going to miss out on some growth or you're going to give them more growth. So if you're able to communicate it in that way, then it's that it's in that point. So, as an example, I said no go. You know, go, no go. For example, it was letting them know that I'm going to be doing these go, no goes, and I'm going to be evaluating whether we should or shouldn't be going after things. I'm now starting to set a boundary, because I'm saying this go, no go. If it doesn't fit this threshold, it is now one not hitting the growth expectation that you have to. It's also I'm dictating, or I'm stating how much workload we can actually do. So if I only have three people and I know that I can only do 15 proposals a month, whatever it is, I'm now setting the expectation. These other ones are going to get cut off.

Sarah Gonnella : 33:15

And her question was well, what happens? Whenever he comes back and he says, well, we have to go after this, I would say well, let me know which one I will be removing from my list. And she was like OK, but you know, but, but, but. And I was just like look, as a manager over other people, it is actually your responsibility to make sure that you're helping your staff, because if you aren't able to step up and say no, you are now not only impacting yourself, but you're impacting your entire staff because you can't say no.

Sarah Gonnella : 33:54

So think of it in his perspective, first and foremost and what's important to him, but show him that what you're doing is looking at it based on profit. That is what you have hired me for. That's goal. That's alignment and goals. Your expectation for me to I'm letting you know what I can and can't do and then if you want something else, then let me know what. What it is it is that's going to go away to the, to the wayside, because my, my expectation and my you know what it is, my boundary is not changing, but I'm willing to negotiate which one you want to do.

The UnCommon Communicator : 34:30

So here we are negotiating, but that so you make a great point of prioritizing, because that, I think, comes into play when you're going to decide to say yes or no, or maybe or not. Now. I think not now is completely acceptable to say that and what you know, what you're talking about, like coming in and here's this, and then it starts getting piled on. I've used these words, which is what do you want me not to do? Exactly, it's similar to what you said. I've said those same things. It's like I can't do all of this. I can't do all of this by the end of today. I know what my workload is and I can't stay till 9 o'clock tonight. What do you not want done?

The UnCommon Communicator : 35:08

And it's amazing how, when you really learn to prioritize and that's, that's a skill, it's a practice. It's not always easy for some people, but everybody can learn how to do it you realize that there are, you know, is it at life-threatening level or is it cannot wait till tomorrow? And there's that range in between, and I do it a lot because I work in, I do scrum. I've my friend Philippe has taught me how to do scrum and when you're doing scrum, which is a lightweight framework for problem-solving and for planning. When you are setting up your scrum board and you're setting up your to-do list, you're I'm constantly prioritizing. Now this is probably a bad. I'll tell you how I learned to prioritize. Like I've ran manpower for a lot of years and I'm sorry, but there's always here's your top employee and here's your bottom employee and there's a gradient in between and we've had to do that, like when we were slow, when I was doing a lot of work at Miller Coors, like you'd get slow and we had we had to let people go. We try to keep them as long as we can. That that's how it works.

The UnCommon Communicator : 36:06

But that is that's a prioritizing of skill sets, of you know responsibilities and know that these people can. They will go find another job somewhere else. We just we're gonna lose them, like it was bad for us to lose them and it was bad for them to move on, but they had other work. But that prioritizing is really the most important thing for me to be able to say yes or no. And then, even with the scrum idea, sometimes, as the product owner is the guy who's going to be deciding how this is.

The UnCommon Communicator : 36:32

You know where this sits. Sometimes those priorities change. You know our relationships change in what we need, so we're able to move that up and prioritize, but you still know what your limitations are at the end of the day or end of the week and you have to be able to make those decisions. And I have put things aside that suddenly were important yesterday, that we're suddenly now the most important thing and it's amazing how you do all that. And you know nobody died, you know no trains crashed, you know no snow airplanes, you know who fell out of the sky when you really look at you know that idea of prioritizing those yeah.

Sarah Gonnella : 37:10

Well, and the other thing that I would say is like I had an employee this weekend. They reached out to me and they were like oh I, I woke up in a panic and here it is Saturday. I forgot that it was the end of the month and that's why you were asking me to do these things. They were like I worked on it this today and I'm like why? I'm like, why are you working on it? Like go enjoy your weekend. Like this wasn't, this wasn't something I was. You know, this isn't life or death, but she was. She felt obligated still, and you know and this is another person, that is a people pleaser that I'm gonna be working on and I'm probably gonna do that same Thing that I did with the other person. All right, we're gonna go a whole week, and the other person I did like for another week. I was like you still need some practice. It's saying no to me, and so I think that it's just so important.

Sarah Gonnella : 37:56

But one of the things you just said is that you can say no, simply no. Sometimes people are uncomfortable saying no and you can say no, I'm afraid I can't, or, unfortunately, I have plans or you know, I'm not gonna be able to fit this in. That is saying no, but you can also do it with a yes, and the way you said it was almost a yes as well, you know. So, yes, I can do XYZ, you know, when you know I can make this a priority. Which item do you not want to be a priority? So you're not saying you can't do what they said that they wanted. You're just saying something else is gonna have to fall to the wayside, and that's a perfect example of saying no with a yes. Exactly, and that's a great approach too If you're concerned about, you know, losing your job.

The UnCommon Communicator : 38:49

It's like, yeah, I would love to do that, but I can't do all that, and I don't think there's anyone who wouldn't hear that and say, okay, I get it, and in some cases that's where they get. Allow some empathy in there. What I love that you do is a practice of and also being being a strong enough leader to say it's okay to say no. Not all leaders say that, and I think that's an important thing to do on on a social level, to allow your direct reports and even people around you to say it's okay to say no. You know, I've heard people clarify that before, and maybe in a way that not as I think, not as driven, not as intuitive as you are purposely training a skill, but they say it's okay to say no. You know, they give you, they kind of give you that permission. I've also heard those exact same words when it's okay to say no, we quick, but I prefer you not.

Sarah Gonnella : 39:41

But to understand, and that's where I think it comes to that having that, the ability to do that To understand, and that's where I think it comes to that.

The UnCommon Communicator : 39:48

Having that, the ability to have a conversation to say, you know, let's, let's prioritize together and let them make that decision. I do that a lot as, as I've learned to the coach learned to be better, you know, just to be a better, you know, communicator is to have that conversation to allow those decision, that decision load To be on somebody else. And when you allow which is basically what you're doing, you're not no, but you're saying okay, what do you not want me to do? Because I think a lot of times Could you mention this too about your employees, their workload. I don't think people really understand their workload in in general construction they talk about, you know, a pm Should be able to run, you know, 50, 60 million dollars with the work, which is just kind of a made-up number, because I had because is it 50 million on one job or is it 51 million dollar jobs? Mm-hmm.

The UnCommon Communicator : 40:41

I was approached by my former boss when we're working in small projects and he says well, I want to grow this division to be a hundred million dollar division. How many superintendents do you need? I mean, there's an actual question he asked me. I said oh, that's easy, and I did do this too, so that's easy. Um, is it a hundred million dollar jobs or one 100 million dollar job? Because if it's one 100 million dollar job, I probably need maybe four or five superintendents, and you know whatever that staff is gonna, if it's 100, one million dollar jobs, and I'm gonna need 100 superintendents, and so there's just this big gap between that question, but understanding that you know, this is there's.

The UnCommon Communicator : 41:19

There's so many, letting him kind of choose that right. Well, I don't know what. We just want to grow the division. Well, I can't tell you how many people we need until we see the quantity of jobs that we have in front of us and that's you're able to process and have that conversation with somebody to say, because I could easily have said you know, I don't know, 50 superintendents will go get them. So I'll go out and get 50 superintendents, and then the work doesn't roll in and then, what you know, I'll get superintendents sitting around. That's not gonna happen, not in today's market, that's for sure.

Sarah Gonnella : 41:49

Yeah, and I would also add I had one particular employee that a lot of times I'm very quick, for the most part because I have to quickly solve Issues, and that's just a skill set that I've. I've sort of learned, or maybe it's intuitive, it's just a part of what I do. But I had another employee that I knew that this person was going to take time. That's what I had learned from them and I was glad that they didn't feel Obligated to give me an answer. They would say to me Can I take a moment to Think about this? I'm like, yeah, absolutely.

Sarah Gonnella : 42:26

And so a lot of times people feel obligated even just to say or give an answer.

Sarah Gonnella : 42:32

But sometimes, when we aren't sure in any situation, whether it's no, yes, giving an answer, just asking for can I get a moment to reflect upon this, or the pause, as you said?

Sarah Gonnella : 42:45

And so that's really where the power is and that's where I have found that, when I identify all of the different employees in the things that they're good at and the things that they might have Weaknesses, in that will impact their position or the company, it's my obligation to help empower them.

Sarah Gonnella : 43:05

And so a lot of the things that people do day in day out have nothing to do with the technical. It has to do with the really hard stuff. It's the communication, it's the setting expectations, it's being in alignment, it's all of those types of things and also understanding the Fear aspect. Fear is a huge driver for so many things in the workplace that if I haven't dealt with that in my personal life Even just learning how to say no that then rolls over into my business life. So I can't emphasize enough that it's important that we really understand employees from a human perspective and the things that that maybe they're struggling with, but it really has to do with maybe something personal within their life. That's really where I have found I'm able to empower people is really understanding what's going on in their life in general in general, and then that does affect workload.

The UnCommon Communicator : 44:04

But knowing that, being empathetic towards that, that's really really huge. I mean that's what a brilliant way to manage your people. Because back to that workload thing, when you look at so I was saying 50 million or 51 million dollar jobs there's this perception that somebody's running smaller projects, that they should be running $40 million worth of job at that level of project manager and that's not accurate because I was on a small job that had, say, it's, $4 million. It had 27 or 26, I think, subcontractors on the project. There was also another job being run that was about $40, $50 million. It had one more. Like the contract.

The UnCommon Communicator : 44:44

I mean all of those things does not dictate the workload of your employee. You have to understand what that is and then add in there you know what his dog died, or his mom's not well, or his wife's sick, or the kids have whatever and to be able to understand that and be empathetic towards that and know that those things are factors that are gonna affect quality of work, they're gonna affect their response of stuff. So I think that's really one of the things maybe driving down and understanding the power of no from a leadership perspective is having that empathy to know the background to what may be a yes or a no or a maybe, to know that there is that background, that thing that's in the background.

Sarah Gonnella : 45:26

Yeah, I agree. You know, the biggest thing I think with practicing saying no is one doing just that, practicing it. And what I loved about the exercise that we did is I was giving this person permission to say no when they probably wouldn't have felt comfortable doing that. But a part of even saying no some of the other things that can be really helpful to keep in mind is also practicing being clear early on, so like if you're just want to say a no this goes back to your example of someone that wants to say no but they're saying yes, but really you know the three days later they're gonna say no. Just practice saying it sooner no, you know, I actually have too much on my plate, or whatever it is.

Sarah Gonnella : 46:14

And another thing that people can do is express gratitude for being asked, and so if someone asks you something, say, oh, I really appreciate you thinking about me. Unfortunately, that won't work, whatever it might be, but sometimes just doing that can be an easier way to be able to say no. But along the lines of saying no, the biggest thing that I have found is the difference between passive and aggressive. You want the middle part, you want assertive, so you want it to be respectful whenever you're saying no, so it's making sure that you're doing it in a kind way as well, or respectful way, and just being more concise about what it is that's going on. But a lot of times people just have a hard time even saying just the word no.

The UnCommon Communicator : 47:06

Yes, yes, yes and no, no, definitely no, it's not coming out right, but you're right that people have a hard time saying that. But I know that there's times when I have negotiated. You know the deadline and what is this deliverable? And it's like you know what? Because, especially on when I was a project manager for a while, there were some deadlines on some reports that we wanted in on Monday but in reality the guy wanted to compile them because Tuesday was his timeframe to do it and he was presenting it on a Wednesday or a Thursday. So you're allowed that.

The UnCommon Communicator : 47:36

So again back to Philippe's thing. Like all deadlines are a lie when you negotiate. That he's like you know what he goes. I know you're busy. Get it to me Thursday morning, then I can put it in there and we'll be fine. Well, guess what you do when you do that to an employee, cause I'm saying this happened to me I delivered earlier than that. So you get to the point where you know that you've been given this permission. I'm gonna actually work a little extra harder on this other stuff so I can deliver this, cause you allowed me to do that, and I think that's important part of being able to have that ability to negotiate and talk about, and then be given permission by your leader to say I think it's okay for you to deliver that a little bit later. Well, sarah, this has been absolutely fantastic. I'm so glad that we found the time to do this. What I wanna do as we get near wrapping up, we're gonna zoom in right here.

Sarah Gonnella : 48:28

All right.

The UnCommon Communicator : 48:30

I always like to have the UC moment. The UC moment is the uncommon communicator moment where we look at. You know, we've been talking for almost an hour now. What is the key takeaway that we can give to the listeners today from our conversation?

Sarah Gonnella : 48:44

Yeah, I think when you feel uncomfortable on what you should say, whether it's no or yes, it's taking that pause and understanding the real reasons that you might want to say one or the other. I think that is where the power is in understanding the why and understanding whether the why is you want to say no and why it is you wanna say no. So, understanding your values, understanding the real crux of it, because sometimes it could be fear and those are things that are sort of an invitation for us to overcome things. So understanding, does it align with your values? If it does, then it's probably the best thing to do is say no. But if it's fear or something else, that's really because you don't wanna extend yourself beyond your who it is you are. Then sometimes saying yes actually can help you grow instead of saying no.

The UnCommon Communicator : 49:42

So say no the why, and then say the no or the yes, but that's like I mean, yeah, the growth is on the other side of that. Maybe that's your limiting factor, but I think that's a great wrap up of that is know the why, right, know what purpose is behind it, and then let your nose be nose and let your yes be yeses. That's great. I think that's a fantastic UC moment. Let's pause for a minute here. And how can people get ahold of Sarah? How did we meet, yeah, and how would you like other people to connect with you?

Sarah Gonnella : 50:13

Yeah. So for those that might want to check out a little bit more on Boy Bass, which stands for bring out your bad ass self, we actually do a live stream every Friday at 930 AM Eastern time, so you can come there. You can also connect to me on LinkedIn, and then James and I are actually a part of a group called the no BS Tribe and that's how we actually connected, and so check them out as well if you're not familiar with them.

The UnCommon Communicator : 50:44

I'll throw all of those into the show notes. Definitely. Those are all great connections. Check out your podcast. It's amazing. I don't. I try not to say the bad words, but it's allowed on this show because you're really doing, you're emphasizing people, you're empowering people with that podcast and that's what I think is so powerful. When you do that and there's no other way like you can't tone that down bring out your own bad person. I mean, you have to be your bad ass self. Right, you have to use those words. I said it, the uncommon communicator said it. I might edit myself out later, but that is all we got. And so let's one more time. A recap on the UC moment is really know your why and say your no, that's what I'm gonna call it and that's all we've got. See you, bye, music.