Ever wonder how a melody can unlock a memory or a rhythm can help someone relearn how to walk? This is the magic that music therapist Joanna Ostrander brings to the table, and she unraveled the mysteries of neurologic music therapy with us, offering an intriguing look at music's impact on the brain. As our conversation weaved through Joanna's transition from performance to therapeutic practice, it became clear that music is not just an art form; it's a bridge to personal growth and a way to help individuals realize their intrinsic value.
It's one thing to talk, but another to truly communicate, and that's where our discussion turned enlightening. We tackled what it means to be an effective communicator, scrutinizing everything from the responsibility of clarity to the art of adaptation when the message isn't getting through. From the curious ways our brains forge connections to the potency of techniques like mirroring and labeling, we've peeled back the layers of interaction to reveal vulnerability as more than just a condition—it's a deliberate tool in the dance of dialogue.
The conversation didn't just stop at communication; we also celebrated those moments where music transcends genre, where an electric violinist or a pop star can break molds and delight hard rock fans. The episode was a symphony of ideas, from the therapeutic power of music in speech recovery to the way personal quirks, like a preference for Captain Picard over Captain Kirk, inform our perspectives on leadership and vulnerability. Get ready to be inspired, informed, and maybe even a little entertained as we harmonize the realms of music therapy and communication.
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Ever wonder how a melody can unlock a memory or a rhythm can help someone relearn how to walk? This is the magic that music therapist Joanna Ostrander brings to the table, and she unraveled the mysteries of neurologic music therapy with us, offering an intriguing look at music's impact on the brain. As our conversation weaved through Joanna's transition from performance to therapeutic practice, it became clear that music is not just an art form; it's a bridge to personal growth and a way to help individuals realize their intrinsic value.
It's one thing to talk, but another to truly communicate, and that's where our discussion turned enlightening. We tackled what it means to be an effective communicator, scrutinizing everything from the responsibility of clarity to the art of adaptation when the message isn't getting through. From the curious ways our brains forge connections to the potency of techniques like mirroring and labeling, we've peeled back the layers of interaction to reveal vulnerability as more than just a condition—it's a deliberate tool in the dance of dialogue.
The conversation didn't just stop at communication; we also celebrated those moments where music transcends genre, where an electric violinist or a pop star can break molds and delight hard rock fans. The episode was a symphony of ideas, from the therapeutic power of music in speech recovery to the way personal quirks, like a preference for Captain Picard over Captain Kirk, inform our perspectives on leadership and vulnerability. Get ready to be inspired, informed, and maybe even a little entertained as we harmonize the realms of music therapy and communication.
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCOJqHEhS1CtX3A4nztIBzdA
Instagram: The_Uncommon_Communicator
TikTok https://www.tiktok.com/@theuncommoncommunicator
Facebook: The Uncommon Communicator
LinkedIn :https://www.linkedin.com/company/80960291/
Website : theuncommoncommunicator.com
Hello everybody and welcome to this week's Throwback episode from episodes 14 and 15 of the Uncommon Communicator Podcast. This week I have sewn the two episodes that never should have been split into two episodes with Joanna, so please listen in and enjoy.
Speaker 2:I want to talk right down to earth and a language that everybody here can easily understand.
The UnCommon Communicator :Welcome to the Uncommon Communicator Podcast, where we bring enlightenment to the topic of communication. Are you ready to take ownership of your conversations? Are you looking to possess the skills to navigate and facilitate conversations to a mutual understanding? What are you waiting for? Grab your growth mindset and let's go. Welcome to the Uncommon Communicator.
Speaker 3:Your host, james Gable and Brandon Thompson are here to bring you enlightenment to the topic of communication. Good afternoon, james.
The UnCommon Communicator :Good afternoon, brandon. How are you?
Speaker 3:I'm doing, alright, it's Saturday afternoon and I've been a bit of a bum like all day.
The UnCommon Communicator :How is that different than last Saturday? Last Saturday I had to think I worked beforehand.
Speaker 3:Oh, did you? I don't know. It all boils together Anywho. More importantly, we are once again joined by a third party this week. This is actually kind of cool, because the third party is actually sitting like right next to us. On my left hand side, your right hand side, but would you create to introduce said third party James?
The UnCommon Communicator :Absolutely so. Today we've got Joanna Ostrander with us. She has been a longtime family friend. We've known probably of each other. I know your sister probably longer, 10, 15 years, maybe it's been a while. So I have asked Joanna to join our podcast today. Joanna, please introduce yourself.
Speaker 2:Hi, I'm Joanna. Obviously I'm a music therapist and I have a lot to say about music and how to use that in communication.
The UnCommon Communicator :Yes, you do so. When we were talking at New Year's, I just started asking some different questions and I was my jaw was dropped. It's just amazing what you can do in the whole topic of communication through music, so that's one thing that we really want to delve into today. So let's back up a little bit. Your degree is in music, so tell us more about your music career.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I studied well. I actually started out as a performance and ed major in music and found out about music therapy when I was a junior in college and immediately thought oh my gosh, this is amazing, this is the coolest thing ever, this is what I have been waiting for, and so I dropped ed, dropped performance, got my degree and then went to CSU for Master of Music in Music Therapy. One of the cool things about CSU is that they do training in neurologic music therapy, which is it's a specific set of styles and methods that are evidence based practice in music therapy. There are actually a lot of different specializations in music therapy there's I don't know that I could actually name them all, so I'm not going to try.
The UnCommon Communicator :It's all now or we stop.
Speaker 2:But there are, but they all have slightly different approaches and so a lot of times there's different focus, and one of the interesting things about neurologic music therapy is that the focus is on how music interacts in the brain, and that has always been really fascinating for me. I love neuroanatomy and those were some of my just most fascinating classes at CSU and it was just really really interesting learning about how the brain works and what happens if there's damage or dysfunction, and so it's always something that's been really interesting to me that just seems like a fascinating career.
Speaker 3:Is that Chris Voss brain size, Complete brain size? Right yeah, Chris.
The UnCommon Communicator :Voss is stealing from the science now and since we've now shifted our podcast.
Speaker 3:So we talked about what Chris Voss does, and Chris Voss applies to science right, because he even brought up the study where someone had a damage to their was it frontal cortex or something like that and they were not able to make decisions because their logical brain was impacted or that was I'd have to go back to, really I'd have to revisit. Chris Voss has never split the difference to the book that we have all not read, that everybody thoroughly enjoyed or listened to the entire podcast on and is probably like no, brandon, you're wrong, it wasn't the frontal cortex, it was the occipital lobe and anyway.
The UnCommon Communicator :We like brain science, but we don't talk about the brain parts it was probably the prefrontal cortex.
Speaker 3:Okay, so I got the frontal part right, you did.
Speaker 2:So the prefrontal cortex does a lot of things with our executive functions. So, things like being able to plan and organize and follow directions and things like that.
Speaker 3:Oh, okay, dude, if it's planning and following directions, I got something wrong. Something went wrong.
The UnCommon Communicator :Not sure what we always want. To start out with. What do you want the world to know about Joanna? It doesn't have to be working Anything you want. What do you want the world to know? The world's on the scene right now.
Speaker 2:Well, world, I really hope that you know everyone. You know what I want to tell people. What I want to share is not so much about me, but just kind of one of the ways that I see the world, and one of the reasons that I am able to do as well at my job as I do is because every person to me is beautiful in some way, and so, even people that drive me crazy, I can find something beautiful about them, and so what I really hope to impart to the people that I'm working with is that they have beauty in themselves and that it's there and somebody is seeing it, and that it exists. They're important, they're exquisite and unique and interesting.
Speaker 3:To help somebody else view the same value that you see in them. Yeah, quality. Yeah, it's a great way to look at the world.
The UnCommon Communicator :So what bugs Joanna then about people?
Speaker 3:I was like do you want to list alphabetically, categorically, chronologically, take your pick.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a really long list. No, there's always going to be things. You know, like we're all human, you know there's all sorts of things.
The UnCommon Communicator :That's a great no, you have a great outlook on life and I didn't mean to put you on the spot without me just because I think you are one of the nicest people I know. And I'm like when you just said when somebody bugs you, you know how to. You know figure out the beauty in them, which is just an amazing ability to do that. And that's why I thought does anything bug Joanna? I bet it does oh yes.
Speaker 2:But you figured out the way. That's probably why I'm so good at that, because there are a lot of things that drive me crazy, and so I have to go. Okay, wait a second, though I get least this All right.
Speaker 3:That's actually. That's a really good way to look at the world. I'm working with a coworker right now and she can be very frustrating. It's and I think I see the same kind of thing you do, where I see the value in the effort that she's putting in and I don't know what it is, but the communication is not clicking and things are not sticking the way we need it to. However, I do see the effort and I need her to understand that the effort is really appreciated, but also understand that everybody's gears be getting grinded right now, Like you know what I mean. It's just it's like we work in here, we do win the thing and we appreciate the effort. Thank you, I'll be quicker, That'd be great, but anyway what's question number two, James?
The UnCommon Communicator :What's a significant moment of enlightenment that has to do with communication, Like where's an aha moment where you that had in regards to communication? You can tie it to work. You can tie it to just in general, like when you knew communication happened.
Speaker 2:I've been staring at this question all week and Should we change this question?
The UnCommon Communicator :No, no, it's a beautiful question.
Speaker 2:It's just hard because I only can I only pick one.
The UnCommon Communicator :Yes.
Speaker 2:Oh, can you pick one? No, I mean like do I have to?
The UnCommon Communicator :only pick one no pick five.
Speaker 2:It's just that communication is such an interesting thing and there have been, I mean, I don't know that I can necessarily describe a specific instance that I have in mind, but it's just it's interesting to see how, how communication happens or doesn't happen, and like how different people respond, and I, communication is just something that's so integral to everything, like we have to communicate to get our needs met, we have to communicate for, you know, enjoyment and belonging, and so it's just it's.
Speaker 2:It's a really hard question, but one of the things that I think I really find the most important with communication is listening, and it's something that I'm not always great at, because it takes a lot of effort to really actively listen to people and it takes a lot of effort to, you know, notice, even listen to ourselves into, like notice actually how we're communicating, and that maybe people can't hear what happens in our head in between, what we tell them. I was, I was talking actually just this week with someone and we were having kind of a back-and-forth and I was explaining about something and the question that she asked me at the end I was kind of like, were you listening at all? And so it was kind of that, that moment of. Instead of like the a-ha communication happened, it was more of like no communication did not happen and and it was kind of- beautiful because I was like okay, so was this my fault?
Speaker 2:did I not give full enough sentences? Did I not explain it in the right order? But there was that moment when they were able to ask a clarifying question, that that gave me a chance to go. Oh wait, they don't understand and so I. It was kind of this moment of that was interesting. I really thought that I had said all of that, but you know, maybe the order I set it in or you know, making sure that the other person is ready for the information you're more likely to to have the communication actually occur well, and that's you nailed it.
The UnCommon Communicator :I mean, you were like I don't know but that's and that's what makes you the uncommon communicator, because that we have two tenets. We talk about enlightenment, which is what you just said. You have to know. It got you all the way through that conversation before you're like hey, didn't get it right. And and the second part, which is the ownership part that we talk about. You immediately took that ownership part, which is neat, because a lot of people are like, ah, you weren't listening and it's, it's great. I always look inward too. It's like how could I have done it differently? But on the other side they're not getting it and it's not always our fault, but I believe it's our ownership to say I'm gonna word this a different way, clarifying questions, those kind of things.
Speaker 2:I think that's a great question, great answer well, and part of it, too, is even if you have these skills, that doesn't mean that you're using them all the time and that doesn't mean you can use them all the time or you want to use them all the time.
Speaker 2:It's okay to take a pass yes, that's gonna happen sometimes too, but it's just. It's interesting how that occurs, though. That just the Just that. Sometimes communication sometimes it's not our fault, sometimes there's nothing we could have done. We tried to give them all the information, we tried to wait until they were ready, and still they're not going to get it. And I was talking to my sister recently and about some training that I had in high school about doing lessons with students and teenagers. One of the things that they talked about is that sometimes someone is not going to be ready when you initially present the information. Sometimes they might need to hear it multiple times before they are ready, before they are able to actually go.
Speaker 2:Oh, oh that's what it is. You know you might be the third person and they might need seven before they really are able to take it in, before they're really able to understand and recognize what it is that is being taught.
The UnCommon Communicator :Well, it's neat how much you know about the brain science, because we love the brain science. But sometimes you make that connection with people on first word and it's just so still strange to me that you can have that connection, that understanding, that communication immediately with some people and others. You're never going to get there Like you're going to keep battling to try to figure that out, and it's just. Those are the differences in how our brains are interacting and trying to communicate.
Speaker 2:Well, and it's funny, because it's not always necessarily, you know, it's not necessarily just this person. It might be this situation, it might be timing, it might be any number of things that affect how we communicate.
The UnCommon Communicator :And it can change in a snap of a finger, kind of not a very good snap.
Speaker 3:Says he's not a very good snap, so not a problem.
The UnCommon Communicator :But it's sometimes you think you're having that communication and then sometimes you realize that it just stopped too. And why does that happen? That's why I'm fascinated by communication in general, because it just seems to me it's a puzzle. And I'm a problem solver. I love solving problems, and when you're seeing that those situations are going on, I want to go solve it. And you know, one of these days I'll figure out the rubik's cube. But to solve those puzzles gives you just I don't want to say an upper hand, because that's not what I'm shooting for. I'm not shooting for an upper hand, but I want to have an advantage to be able to communicate to people, and I want to have those kind of tools and effectiveness. There you go. That sounds better.
Speaker 3:We can't say I don't want to have an upper hand and say I have an advantage.
The UnCommon Communicator :That's the same words.
Speaker 3:There was one time you were taking me like no, that was the exact same words really. I was like yeah, but it didn't sound right, so that's just bad.
Speaker 2:Communication effectiveness is very important.
Speaker 3:It's very important.
Speaker 2:So it's interesting that you mentioned that, though, because there's a lot of different things that can create those barriers. Right, you know, if we use a word that is triggering to someone, in either a good way or a bad way, that could stop the communication. You know, maybe you mentioned something that you know let's squirrel. You know, it could just be something that distracts them, it could be something that upsets them. You might use a word that they don't know, and instead of asking you to explain it, they might just go well, whatever. They obviously don't want me to understand, and they have shut down. So it can be any number of things. And, of course, all of us have these little devices that are like built in distractions that we carry around with us now, too, so that doesn't help either.
Speaker 3:Okay, goldfish brands. Man, I'm telling you sourced.
The UnCommon Communicator :Brandon, do you want to talk about our third question?
Speaker 3:Well, so we actually kind of talked about the third question just a little bit before we started recording. But so the third question is what's like a communication tool, Like what's your favorite communication tool that you use? I asked Jesse about vulnerability. When we asked this question, I was like Jesse, do you think vulnerability is a tool? And it's like it's not necessarily a tool, but it's a condition We've talked about, like our different communication tools. Right, We've talked about mirroring, labeling, not rephrasing. Well, rephrasing.
The UnCommon Communicator :Accusation.
Speaker 3:Accusation not it's that kind of thing and obviously you're going to have different terminology for this kind of thing but, like, what's a, what's one of the communications tools that either A like you can use in the job, like if everyone that's using a job all the time, like when they're using your personal life, but what's something that you like do on a regular basis. Like you know, this is the one, this is my go to, this is my like the most.
Speaker 2:I have probably three that I like the most.
Speaker 2:So obviously I use music a lot as a tool in my job. I don't always use it as like literal communication, but I use it as a way to facilitate communication, because sometimes I'm using it to help create speech. Like, sometimes if somebody is is having difficulty being able to speak fluently, or somebody's having difficulty actually getting their motor skills to create the right sounds to create coherent, clear speech, then sometimes we use songs, sometimes we use like musical games and things like that to help practice those sounds or to help, you know, get somebody to be triggered to speak. So I don't know if you've ever noticed, but if somebody sings part of a song and then they stop, suddenly you kind of want to fill in the next word.
Speaker 3:Yeah. No, that's a bun on the truth, Right, as long as you know the words yeah.
Speaker 2:It works on everyone. So it works really great if you're trying to like create that speech. So sometimes it's about making it something that's really over-learned so that people want to say it. But if you go around and you like start singing a song that everybody knows, I mean here in the US, take me out to the ball game. Most people know that song.
Speaker 3:I was like you have to finish it if you don't.
Speaker 2:Right, yeah, right. So if somebody was to stop midway through, you'd probably just naturally produce the rest, either in your head or out loud. So using things like that can be really great for creating communication. But one of the interesting things about it is that when you're not dealing with a speech disorder, when instead you're dealing with someone who is wanting to express themselves but they're feeling inhibited or they're feeling shy, they're feeling like they don't know what to say, sometimes creating that kind of space, that sort of feels like a gap in music that you want to fill in with something, can get people to say something, and it's often what they want to say. But it helps reduce the inhibition and so they're able to produce it, even though it's like, oh, this is scary, you know. It's less scary because your body's like I want to do something, I want to create something, I want to make it.
Speaker 3:I want to put it out there. They produce it on a reflex, not necessarily on like an act, Like okay, that's cool yeah.
Speaker 2:Also, I really like doing songwriting and improvisation with my clients and so using the music that way to be able to express yourself, be able to. You know, like I'm feeling really aggravated today, so I'm just kind of like bang on this drum as loud as I can. Or, you know, I want to create something beautiful or I want to write some words that are totally nonsense because, like I'm frustrated. You know it's there's, there's a lot you can do with using the music for self-expression, either verbally or nonverbally. So that's one of the tools that I really like to use.
Speaker 2:Another one of the tools that I really like to use is listening, and I feel like, as far as communication goes, that is the most important piece.
Speaker 2:If we're not listening, we're going to miss a lot and our communication might not get across because we might have missed something that is important in being able to create the communication in the way that the other person is going to be able to receive.
Speaker 2:So that's a really important piece as well, and one of the things that I it's funny actually it was a client who told me this and I at first I thought it was really weird, but they, they told me I was disarming and they kind of said it in a way like I don't know if I should trust you, and I feel like that's a tool that I use a lot too. I I am relatively non-threatening, in appearance, in mannerisms, in the way that I express myself, and so because of that, I think a lot of people are willing to speak to me. I'm one of those people that a random person will just start talking to me in the grocery store or at a bus stop or anywhere, and I think it's it's partially because I listen actively and partially because I look like I do that, I I you know. I look around, I smile, I tend to actually look at people and make eye contact and a lot of people they look away, they're buried in their phones, they're, they're doing something to actively avoid, and I don't do that.
Speaker 2:I look around. I want to see the world around me. I want to, you know, notice how beautiful the mountains look today, even though I saw them yesterday.
Speaker 3:No, I was like it's nice, it's nice to be like not Czech. They're still there, we're good.
Speaker 2:And so I think that that quality that I have, that I'm able to even even people that are really gruff and have a really tough exterior they tend to soften around me because I I'm just like, okay, sure what?
Speaker 3:What's going on. I was like, can you get some quality interactions out of those kinds of things too? I had a. I had. There was a lady this is this still to this day is like it kind of blows my mind a little bit, because I ran into her several different times. I'm assuming she lived in the Westminster area, but she has a fake leg and I was. I was coming home from Metropolitan State University of Denver now We'll fill you in after the story. We'll fill you in why that it's important to add the university section to that.
Speaker 3:But and we were, we hopped on the same bus and she was sitting on the road across from me or whatever, and I was looking around. I think it was like after school I was done reading a book. I didn't want to look at a book, I didn't want to look at a phone, I kind of just wanted to learn. So I looked around, we made eye contact and she just started talking the whole way, right, and it's like a 20-some-minute bus ride, and she just kept talking and then and then I got off and I guess she also got off at the same stop. She just kept talking, we kept talking, and I get all the way to like the parking garage still right there with me still talking, doing the whole thing, and I get like pretty much to my car before I think it either clicks with her that like, hey, homie, like I got to go do something now, like seven, eight o'clock at night, like I'm about to go like turn in so I can wake up at five o'clock in the morning and go do this again. But before she like understood, she's like oh, yeah, I should go my way and you can go your way.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it blew my mind. It was one of the it's innocent. Like I wasn't. Look, I was not the most active in the conversation, but I also wasn't there to be like no, I need you to buzz off right now. Yeah, but yeah, so it's kind of crazy.
The UnCommon Communicator :But so why, is it important?
Speaker 3:that. I said university in the label of the college.
Speaker 2:Because I went to the same school as Brandon for my undergrad degree and it was not called the same thing back then. It was called the Metropolitan State College of Denver, mscd.
Speaker 3:MSCD, not MSU no.
Speaker 2:And they called themselves Metro. So.
Speaker 3:Metro is still a bit of a label. Were you guys, road runners still?
Speaker 2:Yeah, of course we were. Okay, the road runners still are. Do you want to know why they're road runners?
Speaker 3:Because we had to run across Colfax and the different streets. Yeah, Because, we didn't see it. Yeah, I love that you know that. Oh, is that where we were?
Speaker 2:No, that's where we were, so it used to actually have streets through the college and they had to cross Colfax. So now a lot of those are actually park now, so it's like grass with curbs, which is very cool, I think.
Speaker 3:It's kind of like a cool little urban. But yeah, that's exactly why I was at Starbucks. I was working at the Starbucks at the college campus when I discovered that, because someone mentioned the Starbucks on the other side of the college, there was a Starbucks.
Speaker 2:Oh my gosh, now one came later.
Speaker 3:So when you took me to university, because it wasn't until MSCD that that one showed up. But yeah, needless to say, that's what we do not have a Starbucks. That's what we're called roadrunners. It's a good time, man. I was a big fan of the school, or am a big fan of the school, but it's still called Metro. I was like they still call it Metro, it's not the same thing, but MSU. It's weird to hear the other industry.
The UnCommon Communicator :Yeah, you give me the same look. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:So you Well, we sometimes call it Metro State.
Speaker 3:Okay, yeah, see, and we just, it's just Metro now.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was usually Metro, but sometimes it was Metro State. Just to no, we're not talking about that Metro, we're talking about this Metro there you go.
The UnCommon Communicator :So let's move on to our last question, which is what impact do you want to leave on this world?
Speaker 2:I am really hoping that whatever net impact I have on the world is a positive one. I really want to leave a few more flowers, a few happier people, a few more smiles and hopefully not cause more pain than happiness. There's a poem by Bessie Anderson Stanley called Success, and one of the things that she mentions is finding your niche and accomplishing your task, but it also kind of outlines whatever that is whether it's an improved poppy or a A smiling child that there are different ways that we impact the world around us and different ways that we measure success. Bam.
Speaker 3:That's a better answer than I would have given.
The UnCommon Communicator :So it's amazing that's a tough question the impact question when the first time I had to answer it. That's a very tough one. To answer Jesse, who we stole this from, we keep going to refer into him. He's my godfather of podcasting. He had a hard time. He's like that's a tough question. It's always a tough question, but what we talk about is owning our impacts and being more intentional towards it. And I'll tell you right now, your net is way above.
Speaker 3:You're doing great.
The UnCommon Communicator :Your net impact is amazing for what you leave for this world.
Speaker 2:One thing I want to mention, and you can totally cut this point out. That is the question that I had the least trouble answering. Oh, phenomenal that's awesome Because it's something that I've thought about a lot in how I work with my clients, why I work with my clients, and it's something that I've had to talk with clients about about what goals do you have for yourself, what is it that you want to accomplish? And so it's unfair to make them do it if I don't do it too.
The UnCommon Communicator :That's amazing, Joanna. Clearly you have plenty more to say and we're going to catch the rest of it next time on the Uncommon Communicator Podcast. Welcome to the Uncommon Communicator Podcast. I am your host, James Gable, and my co-host, Brandon Thompson, here to bring you enlightenment to the topic of communication.
Speaker 3:Hello James, Good afternoon. We are once again joined by Joe Anna Ostrander Ostrander.
Speaker 2:Ostrander.
Speaker 3:Ostrander Okay, so you got to tell everybody the story of the last day, because I think it's incredibly important that everybody either A says it properly, knows who you are properly, or B just like, understands the story, because that was a whole moment that we had and I butchered it horribly.
Speaker 2:So my grandmother always pronounced our name Ostrander. I have met other people who pronounce it Ostrander, who also have the same last name, but it's actually I didn't tell you this part, and I want to tell you this part because I think it's really fun. The name sounds German. The people who first had the name actually were Dutch and the name actually originated in the US because the naming system at that time was actually patronymic. So you were named for your father, so Peter Peterson as opposed to having like a last name that follows you.
Speaker 2:And so after coming to the United States, peter Peterson or Peter Peterson, and then he decided that he wanted to name, have his last name be where his father was from. So it was Fawnnorsstrand, and then eventually, I think you know it gets squished together Fawnnorsstrand, vonostrand and then Ostrander.
Speaker 3:Dang dude. Pretty cool. What's in a name man? There's a lot.
The UnCommon Communicator :There's a lot in the name. I was like I want for Brandon.
Speaker 3:My parents picked Brandon Thompson. I didn't think that was anything too crazy. I was like we're Irish on my dad's side, so we'll figure that out as it goes. Anywho, thank you for once again coming back and talking about communication. We appreciate you having me here Great to be here.
The UnCommon Communicator :Let's talk about the neurological music.
Speaker 2:So there's a lot of different ways that our brains process communication, and one of the interesting things about using music is that there are a lot of areas of our brain that light up when we interact with music and so because of that, even when somebody has damaged one area and something's, you know, not working the way that it should, often there are other brain areas that are interacting similarly with the music and so you can kind of bypass the damaged area sometimes.
Speaker 2:But the interesting thing is that it's not just with communication. A lot of neurologic music therapy is about physical changes too. So things like being able to attend to areas of neglect and you know, understand that there is another side to my body that I'm not paying attention to or regaining motor control after a stroke or after damage, and there's a lot of different techniques that work that way and it's really cool to see them, just to actually see it work, because it's so funny to watch somebody move, and something like walking is intrinsically rhythmic. It's a motion that we do that has a pattern to it, that has a timing to it, and when you add rhythm, when you add music to it, it can help the brain to go oh, that's when it's supposed to happen, and so the brain can latch onto that rhythm and time all of the muscles to happen at the right time. And so it's really interesting, because some of the studies that they did for neurologic music therapy is it happened at CSU and it happened with music students. So these are people who, let's hope, are rhythmic and so even without the added metronome or music added, hopefully they're already rhythmic. But what was found was that even like, every little muscle was more specifically timed when they added the rhythm. So take that to something which is a different sort of brain processing, right? Something like speech.
Speaker 2:We use many parts of our brain when we're processing and creating music, and so our speech areas are pretty small and located in very specific regions of our brain, and there's a couple of different areas that, if they're damaged, can affect speech. Vernike's area and Broke's area are often ones that, when stroke is causing difficulties with speech, those are often the areas that are affected, and with Broke as a phasia, there's a music therapy technique that's used to help regain and recreate fluidity of speech. With Vernike's, there's not a lot we can do because they don't know that there's a problem and so I know some people like that, well, what happens with Vernike's is they, when somebody has Vernike's a phasia, they still have fluidity.
Speaker 2:So it's not a rhythmic issue, it's not a production issue, it's a like table to chair gently, like they don't know what they're saying, and so, or they think they know what they're saying, they're trying to get across what they're saying, but it's not coming out in a way that we understand it. But they don't know that that's what's happening. They think that you're just dumb and can't understand them. But with Broke as a phasia it's not coming out. The part of the brain that is trying to create the speech is not able to do that, and so they get stuck. And so the music can help to make it possible for the speech to come out, because we kind of bypass the area by making it song. So you don't make it like totally sing songy, it doesn't sound like a musical. You make it so that it sort of matches, how you might say, the phrase anyway.
Speaker 3:And could you give us an example of that, perhaps just to help people understand more? Because, like when, I think of music. I'm always like okay, dude, so we talk in like pop, we're going to the hip hop. What's the situation here? Can you give an example of a way that you would work with that kind of?
Speaker 2:speech. So it's really cool. It's actually a technique that's been around longer than our logic music therapy, it's called melodic intonation therapy and it's specifically used with people with Broke as a phasia, and it is really cool to see it happen. So, basically, what you do, you can test somebody to see if they're able to do this, basically, if they can answer questions automatically like, say hey, brandon, how are you today? I'm doing all right, so is that how you always answer that question?
Speaker 3:It becomes a. It's a bit of a habitual answer. It's a reflex.
Speaker 2:So we have certain phrases, certain things that we say, that are reflexes. Like if somebody opens the door for us, we almost always say thank you.
Speaker 3:Those are reflexes.
Speaker 2:So those are reflexes. So if you still have that, if you can still do the reflex, if you can sing a song that's a familiar song like can you sing happy birthday? Can you sing you know something that was, you know popular, that you listen to a zillion times, and if somebody's capable of that, and also they appear frustrated when they're trying to communicate and the words are not coming out, which means that they notice that there's something that's wrong. If they, if they meet those qualifications, then they would be good candidates for melodic intonation therapy. So, melodic intonation therapy you basically, you, basically, you, basically, you basically increase the prosody of a phrase so you make it more sing-songy, you make it closer to song than speech.
Speaker 3:Okay.
Speaker 2:And you teach it to somebody in a way that's very, very repetitive, that you do it over and over, and over and over, and it's a very regimented style, so that it's like, very specific, this is what works. And then I am getting to it all. No, you're doing fine. These answers are fantastic.
Speaker 3:We're learning just like everybody else's, so it's like important to make sure that like everybody be on a safe page. Like this is all gobble this up all day. Trust me.
Speaker 2:So basically, you teach it to them until, like, it's something that they can produce on their own, and then you gradually decrease the sing-songiness. So it might start out with something like I have to go to the bathroom.
Speaker 3:Got it.
Speaker 2:And then you gradually decrease the prosody, the musicality of it and make it so that it sounds a little more normal.
Speaker 3:So it sounds more like I have to go to the bathroom. I suppose I have to go to the bathroom, like there's not like a pace or like a rhythm behind it, right, so you?
Speaker 2:start out with the rhythm and with the song, and actually a friend in line from school she did a study of this with folks from Japan to see if it would work with the Japanese language and her study showed that it did work, even though the Japanese language doesn't have as much prosody as English. So English goes up and down a lot and Japanese kind of stays it's a little monotone yeah.
Speaker 2:But still the difference between singing it versus speaking it was enough. So she did things like konichiwa, so it was like making it so that it's still sustained tone, so you're still accessing the singing part, and so it's one of the neat things about that is, singing is kind of bilateral, so even if you have to do on the one side, you can, still you can still sing Sounds like an after-exam.
The UnCommon Communicator :So a little known fact. My dad was a stroke victim too, actually, and that was the part that was the hardest for him. I didn't realize there's two different types of aphasia, but the biggest frustration for him was he knew the words to say and couldn't do it.
Speaker 2:And that's I didn't For him to be able to work through that.
The UnCommon Communicator :Yeah, and that was all part of that stroke that he went through and he ended up doing fairly well getting through the physical therapy. I wish I had known now what they had worked him through, but it sounds like this is more effective way of getting people to speak better. What's, I guess, like the success rate?
Speaker 2:I don't know. I'd have to look up the numbers on that. Make them up.
The UnCommon Communicator :We're gonna believe everything you say We've discussed that as long as it's not a round number.
Speaker 2:We're good to go, that's right so when you find people that do meet the criteria and, like you know, you need to find people that actually Did you screen them before they make your program?
Speaker 2:So they probably wouldn't end up getting screened by me. They probably get referred to music therapy by a doctor or by speech therapist, by physical therapist, by somebody at a hospital, usually. So and one of the neat things about MIT, it's a speech therapy technique, but a lot of times speech therapists would prefer that a music therapist do that with them, just because, well, unless the speech therapist likes to sing.
The UnCommon Communicator :Which could happen.
Speaker 2:It does happen and there are speech therapists that really like using it, but it's a technique that sometimes speech therapists are a little reluctant to use because they don't use it as often. Broke as aphasia is not a very common. It's not super common as far as aphasias go, but when it does happen this is a technique that does work pretty consistently, and they might not get back all of their speech, but the idea is to teach them phrases that would be useful and would improve their quality of life.
Speaker 3:So then I'm assuming you're just building the neurologic like pathways in between the brain right, like you're trying to go for a bypass when you're doing this?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so.
Speaker 3:I was like break down some of the brain science. I apologize.
Speaker 2:Brain science is really fascinating but one of the fun things. So you know that I'm sure a lot of people hear that you know our brain stops making new neurons and things like that. But it's not actually just so cut and dry as that. We don't tend to regenerate our brain tissue as quickly as we get older, but it's still making new connections. We're always learning new things, like new connections are formed every time we have an experience of any kind, and so basically you're doing kind of multiple things. So you are probably creating connections around the damage, so things that are kind of bypassing it, as you said. But there are times with stroke that it actually kind of reconnects the tissue. So it doesn't always happen that way. Sometimes it's just making new connections around it, like when you have a break or something you know. Like your body creates new bone tissue around the around the break.
Speaker 2:So it's a little of both. Like sometimes we do make the connections again and it does fix the damage. It depends on how extensive the damage is. And whether it's, you know, created some sort of thing there that it can't get through. You know it might have to go around, okay that's cool.
Speaker 3:So this is the kind of stuff that I've always loved. That was, james talks about how Helo's brain, science and the same kind of a boat Like it's kind of strange to think how much not just really math, but how much of a processing power it has, and like what exactly is going on, because you never think about your thinking.
Speaker 2:I guess we are right now.
Speaker 3:I was like yeah, I guess now we're discussing our thought process, but like, yeah, I always thought that was incredibly cool.
The UnCommon Communicator :It's fascinating in communication just how different words you know affect. We talk a lot about the. We break it down, not with all the fancy words that you're using we don't have them but the animal brain and then we've got the logical brain and those are things that I can understand. But just the words that we use change and affect those two different sides of the brain, which is just fascinating to me.
Speaker 2:I wanted to add that when I was listening to your podcast the other day, a lot of times we've been talking about the, our reptilian brain, our mammalian brain, and then you know the because there's different. The mammalian mammals. Yeah Well, just because just because, like, there's different levels of how our brains have adapted over time. So that's cool.
Speaker 3:I just I've. Yeah, these are things I've never thought about. This is the cool stuff.
The UnCommon Communicator :He has thought about it because you've brought up King Kong right. Oh yeah, what soothes King Kong right? The animal brain.
Speaker 3:So did you ever have like an aha moment when you're like I wanted to be a therapist, like where was it? Kind of just one of those where, like, this fascinates me and I want to learn more about this.
Speaker 2:I think that my whole life led me in that direction.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Growing up, I pretty much always like anytime a friend of mine had something that was bugging them, I wanted to listen, I wanted to support them. When I was in well, starting from like seven, seven years old, I started going to this summer camp. That was an all girls camp and I always went to the week that the campers in leadership training graduated and I was like I want to be one of them, and so I went through the training program myself and became a counselor at the camp and that was, you know, we learned a lot of like leadership skills. We learned a lot of communication skills. We learned a lot of like how to instruct someone else and we learned about like teachable moments.
Speaker 3:Hey there, little guy, it's okay. This is where James is gritting his teeth right now, because the dogs have made a couple of appearances on the podcast and you hear the and he does the playback and, if you, I should record him sometime and you can see his reactions to when the dogs go over every episode.
The UnCommon Communicator :And you know why we continue to do it? Because Meg says my daughter, I heard McGee. So if you guys hear that McGee is purposely in our podcast.
Speaker 3:So it's funny that you bring up counseling, because you didn't talk about counseling before, but you, you even bring up how you were listening to episode two, which was, I believe, mirrors. I believe episode two is mirrors and that you use mirrors and counseling, but what did you call it?
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, and so there's a lot of like counseling techniques that I use pretty regularly in my communication with just average people not actually in my therapy.
The UnCommon Communicator :Are we in therapy right now, Brandon and I?
Speaker 2:do we need?
The UnCommon Communicator :therapy.
Speaker 2:I think, everybody does, actually including myself. Therapists actually often have therapy to help them process what they have to deal with. And here you know, vicarious trauma is a real thing, so I've forgotten the question.
Speaker 3:So mirroring as related to counseling.
Speaker 2:Right, right Okay. So there's this counseling technique called reflection.
Speaker 3:Okay, reflection.
Speaker 2:And when I first heard about it and we first had to practice it in school, it drove me crazy, because when I was in school, what they told us to do was to say back to the person what they had said. Now they did not explain this other part which I'm about to tell you, which is it's very helpful if you use different words than the person said, because if you just say, oh, you said this right, the person's gonna be like yeah, I know.
Speaker 3:Is there an echo in here?
Speaker 2:It's gonna drive them crazy, which is what happens to me.
Speaker 2:When somebody echoes back to me what I just said, I'm like are you actually listening or are you just repeating me? And I find that so just like grating and annoying. But when I found out what reflection was actually supposed to be, which is that it is an opportunity for clarification. So if you tell me something and I say it back to you, but in a slightly different way so first of all you feel heard, because you know that I actually understood and interpreted what you said, and then you have an opportunity to go no, the word you use is not quite what I mean Then that gives an opportunity to say okay, I didn't quite understand you, I'm close, and now is your opportunity to tell me no, this is actually what I mean. So the neat thing about reflection is that it's a tool that can be used to get more information and to understand better, because when we use the same word as someone else, we think that they understand it in the same way that we do, but they don't necessarily.
The UnCommon Communicator :So that's almost like a mix between the mirrors and the labels, because the mirrors is what says, well, I get got about it because it's a Jedi mind trick. So we love, I love, the Jedi stuff. He's a good guy, but the idea is not necessarily you just said this One or the other.
Speaker 2:I'm sorry.
Speaker 3:No, I don't, we can have that conversation.
The UnCommon Communicator :Don't get him started, but it's. The idea is and I've seen it when I tend to use this a lot too, when I'm listening to people just to repeat the last word always draws out more words. They feel the need to fill in the gap for one, and then on the labeling side is it seems like, and then you're getting that clarification. So they're very similar processes from the negotiation techniques to this type of reflecting.
Speaker 3:If you've never seen it. James is pretty good about this because I'll get going on some topic. Take your pick on either one. All right, you probably like the new in the Patriots or something you know, just something along line of those I was like yeah, he's like oh it seems like you have a lot of emotions, like you don't run.
Speaker 3:I got a lot of emotions on the difference through Star Wars and Star Trek. Absolutely I do. Kirk or Bacardi got an opinion because you should, so you know, goes on and so forth and he's like, oh yeah.
Speaker 2:Okay, but they're different. But that doesn't necessarily mean one is better than the other.
Speaker 3:This is true. So you have to ask now that we've, like, we've arrived at this bridge, kirk Bacardi, because I gave you my earlier. I did say I gave the opinion on Kanto, so like, and this is okay.
Speaker 2:So I will tell you I do like both of them. I think I like Picard more, but partially because when I first started watching Star Trek it was next generation that I started with, and so Picard was the first captain, and so for me that was like my first exposure to Star Trek. But also I like that he is sophisticated yet vulnerable. I feel like Kirk is really interesting too. He's so much emotion, though, and so for me that was like a little bit too much, like it just he's. He's great, he's a really interesting character, but it just he doesn't doesn't quite line as true to me.
Speaker 3:I get that. No, and that's actually so discovered because my dad's a Kirk guy, but my dad also, like, watched from the very beginning, right. So it's it's almost as a bit of a generational thing where, like, you pick your favorite one. Also. Just a quick question, because this is a thought that I've had and this is music related, so this is kind of on the topic. When you so obviously covered bands do covers all the time, right, so there's the original song and then there's a band cover, my running theory is that the one that you've heard first is the one that you'll like more, and I don't I don't have an example where. So, for I think my favorite cover of all time is probably Johnny Cash's cover of Nine Inch Nose is Hurt, right and objectively I would say it's a better. It's a better song than what Nine Inch Nose did, in my opinion, but even like disturbed Atlantic infusion, I would rather listen to that one than the other, but I heard that version first.
Speaker 2:shum, well, maybe shout my video so that was a great example you gave. I heard the nine inch nails version first. Okay which I do like, and there are times where that's the one I want to hear, but I like the Johnny Cash version better.
Speaker 3:Okay, all right, this is. That was just a pun on a question.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but it I do think that there is something about that primacy kind of thing that, like the first time you hear something that that's more likely to be the one that you think this is what it's supposed to sound like that's the one that you latch on to. It's like there's a theory about that with Doctor who as well that the the doctor that you started watching. Doctor who with it's gonna be the one that you Is the doctor with it. That's your doctor.
The UnCommon Communicator :That's interesting. I want to point out that I hadn't noticed this before. But when you talk about Techniques, tools, the mirroring that we've been talking about, you hate it, right. When somebody repeats that like you catch them doing it, he follows along like I just drew him in with a hook. Oh my god man. He's one thing that we're always trying to do because everybody's so different. He's an assertive on the communication style. You're not, and that's what we've learned is. It definitely works on the assertives because they're like dang right and then you get them going where it's. I hadn't really seen it Developing somebody who necessarily wasn't thinking like what are you doing this to me for? I just thought it's interesting to point out to all of our listeners that these techniques work differently with different styles of communicators. So I was just kind of neat to see that kind of play out right here in front of us when I'm ranting, having somebody do it on me is not as annoying.
The UnCommon Communicator :Okay, you'll keep going.
Speaker 2:It depends on how they do it, though.
The UnCommon Communicator :So, like if they repeat exactly what I said, I'm like yeah, that's what I just said Like it will drive me crazy, but if somebody does it right and they, do it right well, if they, if they use different words, then it'll draw me out and I'll keep going and one of the other techniques was to purposely say the wrong word To get a reaction from the person. To yeah that's another technique that I'm sure you wouldn't enjoy.
Speaker 2:Well, no see, that one actually works. Great, though, because, like, there are going to be times where it's almost like you pretend to misunderstand the person, because then you get to know how they really feel about something.
The UnCommon Communicator :Yeah, because we're driven, we want to react, we want to correct, we want to make it right. So then you get what they're really feeling. Brandon, you got some last words.
Speaker 3:A Bit of a sarcastic question because I've already got the answer in my head. But so I've had this debate with my friends before and seeing as somebody has majored in music, clearly if we have a music major here, got to me. So this is, this is clearly a professional that knows exactly what she's talking about. There is a genre of music called pop punk. Now, you cannot tell me that's a genre. It can't be a genre. It can be one or the other, but it cannot be both. Okay, what is the definition of punk?
Speaker 2:Okay, hang on just a moment. Because this is the whole thing, because when I was I'm dating myself now okay but when I was in middle school, the things that were considered alternative when I was in middle school were things like Alanna Smores said okay which probably still could be considered you know the song and Avril Lavigne.
Speaker 3:No, I've, really I was. So consider Avril Lavigne to be um, um. Alternative is a better way to phrase it.
Speaker 2:So there there was a time, though, when alternative seemed like really like this is anti-pop.
Speaker 3:It was like edgy right.
Speaker 2:Well, it was Presenting itself as being edgy and looking back at it now, many years later, it's really just very similar in in style, in shape, in Topics, in everything to pop.
Speaker 3:So I realized that the whole idea of punk is like we are like anti government Black flag is probably the greatest punk band of all time, personally, but anyway but the thing is that music it's it's both the, the idea and the politics behind it, as well as the music style itself.
Speaker 2:So if you want to combine two styles, you can do that and create a genre that embodies both of those musical Elements. You know, whatever the the parts are for both of those styles and that can theoretically be separate from the idea that created those styles. So, for example, there are some bands that I listened to that are really cool, that have styles called symphonic metal and folk metal and those also seem pretty opposite in their origins but Blend together and create something amazing.
Speaker 2:So I think like, yes, pop and punk have very different origins and very different like ways of Perceiving the world, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they don't work together. So here's I mean, you've heard rap country, haven't you? No, so I have.
Speaker 3:And so then here's where here's where Brandon comes from on this, on this spectrum. Because I believe so and this because I think to have punk without the backing, it is no longer punk, it becomes pop and Pop punk is pop. It's like when you dress up for Halloween, like if I were to dress up as a construction worker for Halloween. It doesn't make me a construction worker, but I look like it pop punk isn't punk, it's pop. Dress like punk.
Speaker 2:Okay, fair enough.
Speaker 3:That's what I for. I know I go back and forth through the body of mine. I'm like it can't be the same thing, man, like I can't do it.
Speaker 2:I think it's just trying to find a way to describe itself that will help people to understand what they're.
Speaker 3:Listening to because, also like folk, metal, by the way, quality stuff it's, it's good stuff. You should, james, go Devlin.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you gotta listen to Lou Betty, and and listen to their electric herty-girdie.
The UnCommon Communicator :Yes to all that.
Speaker 2:It's definitely in do you want to know what a herty-girdie is?
The UnCommon Communicator :Yes.
Speaker 2:It's a really cool string instrument that has keys. So you press buttons to that depress the strings and then it's got a crank that moves, a wheel that that Plays the strings, makes the strings vibrate. So it's sort of like a string organ that has keys tell me more. I love this and a Lou Betty has an electric one music has to evolve, so there it is. Lou Betty. If you're listening and you need a violist, call me.
The UnCommon Communicator :You have no electric viola.
Speaker 2:I have an electric five string viola and an acoustic viola with a pickup.
Speaker 3:I was like. And then Lindsay Sterling in her electric violin. She originally I don't want to. She got her started in America's Got Talent but she uh, that was proud. That was where I, like a lot of people, first recognized her was on America's Got Talent, played at Red Rocks Seven years ago now, eight years ago now, and you killed it. I do. I was like somebody that's over here, like no man it's, it's hard rock or heavy metal. All day I was over here I was like I did see, that's the thing, like somebody who's a stellar musician.
Speaker 2:They, they just transcend Musical barriers even Ed Sheeran.
Speaker 3:I don't want to give a cheer in a lot of credit quality guy. He's got a new song with bring me the horizon out now. Dude, we never would have thought I would put her. Ed Sheeran would end up on serious XM's octane. And lo and behold, not only has Ed Sheeran showed up on serious XM's octane, I'm listening to Ed Sheeran on serious, as I'm not and enjoying it.
The UnCommon Communicator :All right. Well, that's all we have for this show see you bye.